Dragon Age: Origins

[Bane]

Installing now.

I Dl'ed and tried the char creation they released to the public a month ago or so, but it seemed rather weak compared to what they had talked about earlier. The origins may have a huge impact of the game play, but on most classes you can't really choose an origin since if you choose like human/mage, you have to choose one specific origin. Rather crappy actually.

Nonetheless, I have waited a loooong time for a good RPG. Drakensang, Risen and even Withcher were all not good enough (IMHO). I really hope the game play will be fricking awesome on this game. Considering who made it, I have high hopes!

[shiram]

i never really dug the elder scrolls and oblivion and such games
and although it comes from a great developer my interest isnt too high for this one

[Bane]

i never really dug the elder scrolls and oblivion and such games
and although it comes from a great developer my interest isnt too high for this one

..but this game has nothing to do with those games? it is not at all like oblivion or elder scrolls, rather it's like some kind of merge between Kotor and Nvn. It was said to be like BG, but I haven't seen any of that yet.

Graphics wise, it's rather weak, and it seems the char progression with skills and such are not as great as I hoepd. BUT it seems the story and the quests are really fucking good. The dialogues are great and it really feels like your answers in dialogues really affect how the story unfolds.

I've tried a human mage and a dwarven fighter so far. I think I will continue playing the dwarf. I think this game will have alot to offer all of us who has waited so long for a good rpg.

[shiram]

meh baldur's gate or whatever
those "Dnd" type rpg games never really did it for me
i watched some trailers for dragon age, and the gameplay looked totally boring
not my cup of tea

[Bane]

What other types of RPG is there?

[Darius]

I'm usually far from being a fanatic local patriot (quite the opposite, in fact, Poland pisses me off in many ways) but I say the Witcher kicked some serious ass (although it does have some annoying flaws that I can easily list). It had a good story, nicely polished engine, great animations, lots of meaningful decisions, dark fantasy flair, strong & juicy language, minigames, etc. A dirty, realistic fantasy world but to really appreciate it I think you would have to read the books, they are IMO the best books the fantasy genre has to offer - and I've read quite a bit.

Oblivion was boring - when modded to the teeth, it's an OK game with nice visuals but the entire sandbox is a bit bland and lacks a story driver, as well as memorable NPCs, events, etc. Even Fallout 3 didn't convince me 100%, although I find it much better than Oblivion.

Tried Risen, not really interested in buying it. Seems worse than Gothic 1/2 at the first glance, and I'm not too fond of tropical fantasy RPG scenery.

Pre-ordered collector's edition of Dragon Age, I hope it lives up to my expectations. I don't want fancy mechanics and stats/rolls overkill like in D&D games, I want well crafted characters, storytelling and adventure. The first review worldwide, published by CD Action, a Polish games mag, was favorable - the game is supposed to be a bit "old school" and unpolished in some aspects but deep and enjoyable. Looks like it has way too much blood/gore though. We'll see... I'm picking it up on Friday.

[Bane]

Witcher: The thing I didn't like, and that made me stop playing, was the insanely retarded skills system. I just hated it, and also the fact that you couldn't really create your own char, you just played the premade guy. Anotehr thing that bugged me was the real time action. When I play an RPG, I want my stats to make the difference, not my skills with the mouse. I know the story is great, my friend whom I trust when it comes to games, say so. it's just that the actual game play is so boring I can't stand playing it unfortunetely.

Oblivion just sucked, and Fallout 3 was the worst piece of crap I have ever played. Items degenerating faster than light and enemies respwning inside the building you have just cleared.. Man, the game play was so incredibly crappy I almost cried a little. I had been waiting eagerly for a fallout game for years.. I will never forgive them for buying up the franchise and turning into the pile of brahmin manure it is now.

And back to dragon age. It has a little too much real time action for my taste, but at least it's your stats that make the killing, not your skill with the mouse. Although you need that as well since giving orders to your party members are hard as hell. The pathing is so fucked up that they keep forgetting your orders before they have manouvered in close enough to the enemy, heh.. frustrating. You really need to pause and issue orders alot, or take control of each member in turn yourself.

There seem to be alot of fighting as well, so far. I hope it gets less fighting and more story and dialogue(fuck the spelling) further in the game. I have only played through two origin stories, and reached the place where the generic story starts so far though.

Focusing on finishing borderlands before I start this game though. I think I only have a few more hours of game play left there, heh..

[shiram]

there are strategy rpg's like shining force or final fantasy tactics
there are jrpgs like final fantasy, phantasy star, breath of fire...

i guess i mostly like old school rpg's
the newer dont really do it for me, except maybe for fallout 3

[Bane]

i guess i mostly like old school rpg's

I'm curious, what's more old school than BG?

Other than that, it seems our taste in RPG's are pretty much complete opposites, haha I hate pretty much everything japanese, 'cept FF1 and 2.

[shiram]

well afaik baldur's gate came out in 1998, so alot of stuff is more old school than baldur's gate
as for jrpg's i hate them now
but back when we had final fantasy 2 (or 4 depending where you live) and final fantasy 3 (or 6), the shining forces 1 and 2
suikoden games... they we're great jrpgs

now i guess i like my rpg to be with something else..
action rpg, shooter rpg... etc
those straight up fantasy rpg's a la nwn or bg or oblivion have all the same lack of flavor to me
the story is usually something i cant seem to focus on, and the gameplay is often tedious at best

so i steered cleared of most pc rpg's

[Darius]

Witcher: The thing I didn't like, and that made me stop playing, was the insanely retarded skills system.

Wow, IMHO you're exaggerating here, to put it mildly. The skills system maybe wasn't the best ever created but it was quite diverse and entertaining. Main attributes, fighting styles yielding new moves, witcher signs, etc. etc. Many different options. Too bad points were taken from one common bucket to feed them all but I hardly would call this system "insanely retarded". It was pretty good, in fact.

I just hated it, and also the fact that you couldn't really create your own char, you just played the premade guy.

Look, here is exactly where the Witcher players can be divided into (a) people who know Sapkowski's books and (b) people who don't. While the latter folks' understandable desire was to be able to create a fully customized character, the former wouldn't even think of playing the game as anyone else than Geralt. I'm not denying it is a drawback for players who haven't read the books but you have to understand that The Witcher was created primarily for people who know and love the saga so when CD Projekt announced the game's playable char would be indeed Geralt himself, most folks here were just euphoric. It's a cult character, it's an incredibly cool fantasy "hero", and I wouldn't even want to play the game with a generic, self-created witcher. It had to be Geralt. I would say though that it would have been nice to at least be able to play some episodes as Triss or Dandelion, for example.

Anotehr thing that bugged me was the real time action. When I play an RPG, I want my stats to make the difference, not my skills with the mouse. I know the story is great, my friend whom I trust when it comes to games, say so. it's just that the actual game play is so boring I can't stand playing it unfortunetely.

OK, let's put it this way - the combat system did disappoint me a little as well because it's based on timing mouse clicks. Sounds retarded. However:
1) it's not true that only your skills with the mouse influence the game - your character development and wise use of signs/alchemy MASSIVELY determines your success/failure as well.
2) I completed the game at hard, the highest difficulty setting. It was challenging sometimes but usually, fights that were impossible at the first glance, required figuring out a pretty simple tactics. I liked this aspect in the game, it made feel the world gritty and the gameplay demanding/dynamic.
3) Seeing Geralt pull off incredible, wonderfully animated moves at later stages of the game gave me tremendous satisfaction in terms of seeing "correct" char development and the effect of well-timed mouse clicking + sign use. No idea if you saw an "end game Geralt" but I killed one of the last bosses in the game with just ONE incredible combo.
4) There are plenty of other games that also "test your mouse skills" beside rolling dice, like Gothic series/Risen, Oblivion, Two Worlds, etc. I think both such games and games with "pause action, assign orders, let CPU roll dice" mechanics have their place.

Oblivion just sucked,

Boring after a while, tedious, true. However, when fully modded, the game shows some quality IMO and can become pretty good.

and Fallout 3 was the worst piece of crap I have ever played. Items degenerating faster than light and enemies respwning inside the building you have just cleared.. Man, the game play was so incredibly crappy I almost cried a little. I had been waiting eagerly for a fallout game for years.. I will never forgive them for buying up the franchise and turning into the pile of brahmin manure it is now.

Well, it was predictable, "Oblivion with guns". I think F3 is a good game, it's a pretty deep RPG, but with one fatal flaw - the basic mechanics I don't like VATS, I don't like the tedious running around with permanently overloaded inventory, I don't like the constant respawns or repairs, I don't like the stupid bobbleheads... I want a more concise, story-driven RPG with less hassle/bullshit/micromanagment/long distance travels but more fun. I also think it was a mistake to place F3 in a sandbox environment. Still, I'm giving this game a second chance, I've just bought the GOTY edition. We'll see...

And back to dragon age. It has a little too much real time action for my taste, but at least it's your stats that make the killing, not your skill with the mouse. Although you need that as well since giving orders to your party members are hard as hell. The pathing is so fucked up that they keep forgetting your orders before they have manouvered in close enough to the enemy, heh.. frustrating. You really need to pause and issue orders alot, or take control of each member in turn yourself.

Typical Bioware. Even Mass Effect had stupid pathing issues, not even mentioning BG/IW/NWN, etc. Still, this doesn't scare me off.

There seem to be alot of fighting as well, so far. I hope it gets less fighting and more story and dialogue(fuck the spelling) further in the game. I have only played through two origin stories, and reached the place where the generic story starts so far though.

This one is more problematic :/ I hope it doesn't turn into a hack'n'slash like Icewind Dale (but it was intended there). I hope it can provide the balanced experience of combat/exploration/talking to NPCs like most Bioware games did.

[shiram]

i love and still play fallout and its one of my best game of this generation of consoles
its a game with an epic feel to me
i loved how you got inserted into the main hero with his birth and schooling
and the first sight out of the vault was just a mix of awesome, grandiose and epic
i loved taking time to explore weird buildings and finding the loot

i disliked the lack of variety in enemies
the long distances can be annoying, but with fast travel its not a real issue
inventory space, well it is annoying, but i've been dealing with such things in so many games im used to it by now, and it just makes sense
the heavier armor makes you slow and noisy etc...
plus you can just down a beer and get some more inventory space

the items degenerating, well they are usually at least 200 years old, and so they get crappy fast...
you gotta have your repair up thats all, i never really found it problematic actually
not all buildings will have respawn as well, and usually if you cleared it you dont need to go back

i must admit, in my first playtrough i lost the main story completely. i was just out there exploring everything and not caring at all about the main quest, there are so many things to do and see out there
i dont see whats wrong with the bobbleheads.. they are just powerups, and could have been anything else

im actually completing a third playtrough right now, and theres still stuff i didnt get to do or explore

i didnt play the older fallouts, maybe my perspective wouldnt be the same if i had
i gotta say though that for the things coming, mass effect 2 could be a contender as one of the best games of this generation as well

[Bane]

Haha Dar, you really disected my post!

Don't take it personally if I say Witcher is not my kind of game. I know that it is polish and that your patriotic heart, along with the apperent qualities of the game, makes you love it. The game is not for me though, and I may have exaggerated a little when calling the skill system insanely retarded, but IMHO, making your characters damage potential pretty much solely depending on using skills that add "160 dmg" and stuff like that, and almost entirely excluding item hunting and tweaking, that is NOT what I want with an RPG. Hmm.. long sentence, but this is the way I feel about that game.

Oblivion and Fallout 3 has the same issues that bothers me. I know many ppl think they are both games, and I know that especially FO3 have recieved alot of awards and stuff like that. To me, they both came up short though. The negative aspects of the game play made me stop playing even though I saw potential in the game. Oblivion and FO3 both had the item degeneration, which I just didn't like. I understand that the weapons are old in FO3, but that doesn't change the fact that you needed to ruin around with fifty 10mm guns just so you could repair them.. . Also, the inventory was quite small, and since I didn't find a companion to help me carry the shit, I kept being overcumbered alot (yes, I am truly a pack rat when playing these kind of games, hehe) which made the distances even longer, heh..

I loved the atmosphere in FO3, there I thought they made a kick ass job really creating the apocalyptic world which FO1 and 2 couldn't back in the nineties. but as with all games, no matter the genre, good graphics is NEVER enough if the game play is tedious and boring.

I agree with Shir, I think Mass Effect 2 can be the greatest game in the genre in a long time. I absolutely loved ME1, even though it had some disturbing glitches and other issues, and is really looking forward to playing it.

And Dar, in ME you played Shephard, but you were still able to customize him I know Geralt is a character you shouldn't change, but it is absolutetly possible to create a game with a specific playable character but still allow the player to change him/her to his/her liking. Actually, Dragon age does something similar. You can't change your surname, just the first name, so the origin you choose gives your character some things you can't change. I like that part of the game actaully, it's really cool.

[Darius]

i loved how you got inserted into the main hero with his birth and schooling
and the first sight out of the vault was just a mix of awesome, grandiose and epic
i loved taking time to explore weird buildings and finding the loot

This is exactly why I'm giving this game a second chance. I simply can't resist its elusive lure, even if I'm well aware of its shortcomings.

i dont see whats wrong with the bobbleheads.. they are just powerups, and could have been anything else

Yeah but the entire mechanics stink a bit IMO - the system encourages all-out minmaxing/powergaming. Run straight to Rivet City to get the Int BH right away, etc. Of course, no one forces me to play the game this way but heck, it's tempting

Haha Dar, you really disected my post!

Hee hee ;P

The game is not for me though, and I may have exaggerated a little when calling the skill system insanely retarded, but IMHO, making your characters damage potential pretty much solely depending on using skills that add "160 dmg" and stuff like that, and almost entirely excluding item hunting and tweaking, that is NOT what I want with an RPG. Hmm.. long sentence, but this is the way I feel about that game.

Wait, wait. I agree that purely in terms of combat, the points you earn pretty much only transfer into "flat boosts" like +x% dmg or +x% .... resistance at night but you also get additional moves thanks to expanding fighting styles, and you can also invest in signs, which are quite fun when buffed up.

About item hunting - look, it's not D&D Forgotten Realms where +5 keen fiery swords grow on trees. It's a dark fantasy world. Magic is feared but also coveted. Wizards pull the political strings and pretty much rule the world from behind the thrones. Nobody mass produces magic items here. Witcher is not about item hunt. Look at Gothic or Drakensang. They are not exactly looter dreams either. If you want a great sword, complete quests to get it. Collect mats & recipe, craft it. Explore a long-forgotten tomb and earn it. 2-3 great armors and meteorite/several named powerful weapons are more than enough. You know, if Witcher was a loot whore, I would've hated the developers for fucking up the world. Bane, I agree it's not a game for everyone, it's probably not a game for you. One really has to know and love Geralt's world in order to fully appreciate the game. It's not your run-of-the-mill RPG.

Also, the inventory was quite small, and since I didn't find a companion to help me carry the shit, I kept being overcumbered alot (yes, I am truly a pack rat when playing these kind of games, hehe) which made the distances even longer, heh..

My pain as well.

I agree with Shir, I think Mass Effect 2 can be the greatest game in the genre in a long time. I absolutely loved ME1, even though it had some disturbing glitches and other issues, and is really looking forward to playing it.

I liked it a lot as well. Particularly the love with which races/technologies were created and explained.

And Dar, in ME you played Shephard, but you were still able to customize him I know Geralt is a character you shouldn't change, but it is absolutetly possible to create a game with a specific playable character but still allow the player to change him/her to his/her liking.

Stop. Touching. Geralt. Either he's a "mutant" with white hair and a raspy voice, or he's not Geralt at all.

The bottom line is the following - CD Projekt (and I know this from 1st hand because my friend was working on The Witcher; now he works for Lionhead on the next Fable game in Guildford/England) had to do something IMO extremely difficult:

strike a balance between pleasing the old witcher fans, familiar with the books and attracting new players, regular RPG lovers who simply like good games but know nothing about Geralt or Sapkowski.

In Poland, they were complimented for staying true to the original world crafted by Sapkowski. BUT! If they made the game just a touch more attractive to other players (maybe episodes played with different chars, some limited customization of Geralt, a bit more liberal approach to magic items), they would have achieved a far great international success than they did (and Witcher was a worldwide commercial success anyway and is very popular e.g. in Germany where it's constantly been in the top 3 single player reader charts for a long time now).

It was a collision of goals/interests. I'm happy the Witcher did not contain exactly the things that you wanted, Bane Sorry, mate, Polish customers were a priority. The golden solution would have been to make 2 versions of the game - a hardcore/orthodox one and a more "mainstream" or rather "universally appealing" one

[Bane]

After playing for about ~10 hours or so as a dwarf fighter (noble) focusing on 2-hand weapons, I have to admit (regrettably) that I am disappointed

The story and lore, as well as dialogues and companions, are good but the fighting is not good enough, not nearly as fun as it should be. My main character kept dying alot, even vs random mobs, so I read alot of forum threads to try to learn to fight better, or at least get some hints and tips. I read I am not the only one, heh.. Alot of people who didn't go mage have had a hard time, many even being forced to play on easy because the normal setting is too hard at times. I still haven't encountered a fight which I haven't won after some item tweaking, party chosing and a couple of reloads, but I don't think that part is very funny in the long run.

Don't get me wrong, I like that battles are challenging, but after focusing purely on dishing out damage with my main char, going for alot of strenght and a big two-hander, I realize my character is flawed since two-hand weapons just aren't good enough, at least not this early in the game (I've played roughly 15% of the game). Playing as a fighter you pretty much HAVE TO choose sword/shield setup, and that's why this game is not good enough.

The game doesn't reward you for playing anything other than a mage, which is obviously what needs to be played in oprder to have a good single player campaign. Any otehr char may of course be used but will give you aloooot of reloads and an insane amount of pot gulping. I need at least 10-20 health pots EVERY battle I play with my current party setup, and that is just plain wrong considering I have not gimped my chars with stupid skills or poor stat allocation. It's just that the game is not balanced, to be honest, it's so poorly balanced I wouldn't really recommend anyone ever playing this game unless you go mage. Save yourself the heartache from trying to gert a good game play out of a unbalanced character. Go mage, and go AoE spells.

Also, the game forces you to choose one specific location on your map the first thing you do, because if you don't get a party healer, you will die. Alot. I didn't know this, and therefore did choose another location as my first stop on the free-roaming map, and indeed, died alot I have.

Overall, I'd say the game is good, especially the graphics and atmospehere, but not nearly as good as I had hoped. I guess my dream of a great RPG-experience is still just a dream..

And yeah one more thing, they want you to pay alot of extra for their downloadable content, heh.. Kinda cheap of'em. Can't blaim them, but it sure is lame to have to pay for some minor quests, I mean, it's not even really expansions. it's made to get the fan boys to pay up some more coin for a better armor, heh..

[Darius]

Theoretically, I should have the game on my shelf at home right now. However, EA Poland issued an announcement that due to "logistical problems", the PC Collector's Edition of DA (which I have preordered) would be delayed to this week. As a compensation for the additional waiting time, they will send out some kind of gadget. Anyway, I haven't had a chance to play DA yet but what you wrote is very troubling for me, Bane. Why?

1. I like fighters as main chars. Sometimes rogues. In most games, I choose the melee DPS type of char.
2. I like 2h weapons, hiding behind a shield sucks in my book

It's actually surprising to me that mage seems to be the most powerful char. In most RPGs, particularly D&D, mages tend to become incredibly powerful later on but make very poor starting characters due to extreme fragility (low HP, pitiful armor/resistances, etc.) and limited use of magic (a small variety of spells, mana/spell slot problems, etc.). The latter doesn't really apply to new D&D editions though.

I fucking refuse to play a mage in DA. If I find a fighter/rogue type of char too weak to be efficiently playable, I'm gonna ditch the game We'll see...

[Bane]

Without spoiling too much, I can't say that even though you don't play mage yourself, your party can of course have mages.. It's just that if you choose mage yourself you can spec him to become a major powerhouse. Companions always have a skill point or two in the wrong places, it's just how they are. Also, if you play mage you can have fireball as early as level 3.

This game is not DnD, not nearly. Or maybe in a way if you compare these mages to the DnD sorcerers. You have fewer spells yes, but only a cooldown and your mana supply limits how you use them. I standard fight you use maybe 4-5 spells a number of times each rather than a hundred spells one time each. So, the action is more real-time action oriented than DnD combat.

Btw, stop me if you think I am spoiling stuff for you, I don't want to ruin your experience, merely let you save time (and agony) from my mistakes. I rerolled a new char, a elf mage, and so far it has been a MUCH more enjoyable experience. I also changed the first destination, so that I could pick up the members I wanted in my 4-player party immideately. You see, only the ones you use gain experience, so by doing as I did my first time, swapping members for different fights, they wil all be mediocre instead of a few being really strong (meaning three companions have got all the XP and thus higher levels is superior to sharing it among more compaions).

I've heard people playing both fighters and rogues and finishign the game, so of course you should do that if you wish. If you want to, I can give some advice there as well, but perhaps you want to experience that yourself, so don't read below this in that case.

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Creating a fighter: Don't go twohander, they suck. Yo uswing alot slower than with a onehander, so your average DPS is not much higher than a sword/shield guy. Also, most good weapons are of course longswords, like all rpg's, heh.. If you play the fighter, I would advice you to take the role as tank. That is, sword and shield as well as taunts and threatening attacks, and then use your companions for the actual DPS. Put an even amount of points in strenght and dexterity, as well as a few in willpower so you can have a few powers activated at the same time, as well as taunt when you need to get aggro.

Creating a rogue: Don't go bows. They are just not good enough, and most skills that add damage don't apply to them, for instance, you can't apply poison on the bows like you can with melee weapons, thus rendering that skill (poison making) useless for a ranged rogue. I say, use alot of poisons and coat those weapons alot. You will need it since you can't tank, and some poisons can stun or immobile enemies which may become crucial. You will come along alot of locked chests, which I have not been able to open, dunno what's in them but I've read the loot in such containers may not be worth the skill point investments. I would do it anyways though, just because I hate to walk past locked chests like I have to now! It's damn annoying to not have a rogue in your party, heh.. Rogues can pocket steal, but I wouldn't spend points there if I were you. You can get a companion to do that for you, jus switch your party while in towns, steal all you want, then switch back to another companion when questing.

[Darius]

Thanks for the tips, mate. There are no real spoilers in your post, so I read everything (thx for the warning anyway). If I go fighter, I'll try the 2h path out of sheer stubbornness If the challenge proves too punishing and I get my ass handed to me too often, I'm simply gonna reroll tank or rogue. Every rogue I've ever played had his lockpicking maxed out so I'm probably going to do this again, even if chests mostly contain crap. I've never really found pickpocket skills to be of any use (and in some games, picking pockets was particularly retarded yielding dumb pseudo-loot most of the time, e.g. in Drakensang) so I don't think I'm gonna run around picking pockets.

BTW, is there a good mage or rogue available early on as a companion? If there is, I may go for fighter and use an NPC rogue.

[Bane]

You get a decent mage early on, after the origin story, once you are like level 6 or so (give it a couple of hours, maybe three-fours of game play depending on how thourough you play it), and you get your first rogue in the first 'real' town you visit. the first rogue is specced for bows but starts with good lockpicking skills, tier two out of four IIRC. She is also a romance option if you wanna go down that route. If you play a 'good' character and pick thise dialogue options you will gain alot of +approval with her which will unlock alot of dialogue and plot quests, sorta like with old KotOR.

Haha, I admire the fact that you will try the twohander anyways! I know it is of course possible to beat the game with such a char, it will just be harder. If I may give another suggestion then, I would say (this is no real spoiler either) that once you hit the free roaming map (kinda lika BG) there is a certain area where you can pick up a good healer mage early on. With a healer, the first mage and a rogue you should be able to get by being the tank/dps-fighter.

My mistake was that I never knew that mages was so crucial. So I suggest that you go visit the circle tower once you have cleared out all quests in the first village.

Minor spoiler below, read it if you want to avoid missing out on quests, it inculdes no quest spoiler but a very minor story spoiler (the text is in white to avoid reading by mistake):







Be sure to clear out the first town completely, all quests and all vendors you might want to visit before you leave it for another destination on the free roaming map, because once you leave you will never be able to go back again.

[Darius]

Thanks for the info. The "white spoiler" is particularly useful - I hate it when games make me unable to revisit old places without warning